Taxis
Tyne and Wear
"The Independent Taxi Driver"
TF Student
Posts:342
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| 23 Sep 2007 10:01 PM |
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OK I have a situation that I need very accurate advice .
I will thank everyone in advance for sound 100% information regarding this matter.
I will keep this simple, here is the scenario.
I am a licensed hackney carriage proprietor licenced in area "A"
where I work and ply for hire as a "Hac".
I live in area "B" where my local council who controls area "B" says I need to obtain a
operators licence to accept bookings frrom my home address in area "B".
They mention if I advertise to accept advance bookings and operate with a company name or advertise in any way outside my licencing area I will need a operator licence.
At this time I am high 90% sure they are wrong and intend to challenge there decision.
Here is my thoughts on the matter.
I am a licensed hackney carriage driver and I take bookings by phone from my office
( which is my car / taxi ) I do advertise by giving every passenger a card and have an internet site with a booking form so I am near sure I can take bookings using these methods without obtaining an operator licence.
Operator licences are meant for bookings taken for Private hire cars and NOT taxis.
So if I am outside my licencing area and in area "B" can I accept the booking by phone ( Mobile ) ?
Can I give business cards out and accept bookings in area "B" ?
I mean accept bookings by phone ( advanced bookings ) NOT PLYING FOR HIRE.
I have read the Gladen v Brentwood case law and I think I am right.
Can someone be 100% sure and give me the answer to my questions.
By the way and this may be totally irrelevant but area A and by borders one another.
Regards Steve |
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Taxis
Tyne and Wear
"The Independent Taxi Driver"
TF Student
Posts:342
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| 23 Sep 2007 10:07 PM |
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We can not edit posts on here but the last bit should read.
By the way and this may be totally irrelevant but area A and B borders one another. |
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Baron Silas Greenback
TF MVP
Posts:212
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| 24 Sep 2007 8:23 AM |
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| i suggest you contact allo allo by message as he appears very capable in these matters a font of good knowledge |
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sceptical
TF Newbie!
Posts:2
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| 24 Sep 2007 3:37 PM |
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I think Taxis wants other users on here to tell him he is right, and then he will ask whats the difference between that and a Berwick License operating elsewhere.
However, there are two schools of thought on the issue.
The obvious one is that if he advertises on the internet and I see the advert from another part of the UK does he need a PH Operators license here too?
As I understand it, with PH, the place where the booking is received is obviously important.
Whilst he can look at the Gladen ruling, has he read the Hull vs. Wilson scenario, the Computer Cabs case or ABC Cabs vs Camberley or East Staffs vs. Rendell?
From memory the Gladen case was about the need for a HC to have a PH operators license, the fact is that this chap isnt licensed at all within the area where he accepts bookings.
All very confusing stuff.
Yours
Sceptical
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Taxis
Tyne and Wear
"The Independent Taxi Driver"
TF Student
Posts:342
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| 24 Sep 2007 5:27 PM |
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Posted By sceptical on 24 Sep 2007 3:37 PM
I think Taxis wants other users on here to tell him he is right, and then he will ask whats the difference between that and a Berwick License operating elsewhere.
However, there are two schools of thought on the issue.
The obvious one is that if he advertises on the internet and I see the advert from another part of the UK does he need a PH Operators license here too?
As I understand it, with PH, the place where the booking is received is obviously important.
Whilst he can look at the Gladen ruling, has he read the Hull vs. Wilson scenario, the Computer Cabs case or ABC Cabs vs Camberley or East Staffs vs. Rendell?
From memory the Gladen case was about the need for a HC to have a PH operators license, the fact is that this chap isnt licensed at all within the area where he accepts bookings.
All very confusing stuff.
Yours
Sceptical
Well pal.
I came on here asking for good sound advice regarding a legal issue.
And then you reply saying "I think Taxis wants other users on here to tell him he is right, and then he will ask whats the difference between that and a Berwick License operating elsewhere" which is incorrect and wrong !!!!!
If I wanted to ask that I would, but I don't!!! so why come across with that attitude.
And second...You wrote" the fact is that this chap isnt licensed at all within the area where he accepts bookings"
You really do need to do some more homework and educate yourself a little.
I actually have in my possesion NOW a letter from a licencing officer in area B
stating I do not require a operator licence.
The fact still remains I need to know even though I do not require a licence can I advertise outside area A.
Oh and by the way I live 200 yards over my licencing area boundry .
Nothing at all to do with Berwick upon Tweed.
You did make one very relevant point in your post when you said
"The obvious one is that if he advertises on the internet and I see the advert from another part of the UK does he need a PH Operators license here too ? "
This was the question I need answering.
And for no other motive apart from the obvious !
I will see if I get a sensible reply from someone who actually knows the laws.
Regards Steve
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Taxis
Tyne and Wear
"The Independent Taxi Driver"
TF Student
Posts:342
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| 24 Sep 2007 5:47 PM |
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Can I just add.
The case history you quote
Hull vs. Wilson scenario, the Computer Cabs case or ABC Cabs vs Camberley or East Staffs vs. Rendell
No I have not read these ones due to the fact I do not know the links / books to obtain the information.
Feel free to post links to these cases and then I will read them.
Regards |
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batus
TF Guru
Posts:64
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| 24 Sep 2007 6:59 PM |
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| surely as long as your licensed in area "A" and the phone number you advertise your business with is the number to the licensed area then why wouldnt you be able to do so ? as the booking is taken at the office your licensed at and is quite obviously in your licensing area then whats the problem ? you could be licensed in Glasgow and as long as you use your office number where your licensed you could advertise in Gretna Green as your taking any bookings from there within your licensing area even though the punter may want you to pick them up in Gretna. thats their choice Steve |
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Taxis
Tyne and Wear
"The Independent Taxi Driver"
TF Student
Posts:342
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| 24 Sep 2007 9:21 PM |
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Well batus...
Thanks for the reply and thats what I was thinking.
I will give you a quick run down of things.
I began my business here some time ago now and was told I needed an operating licence by the council where I live.
So I got one, but the licence took over 1 month to get here.
In that time I was told "You can not begin to work under your chosen trading name until you actually have the licence" so I waited and asked can I begin to trade....I was told no, no no
So then I spoke to a very good friend I met on a taxi forum and he adviced me I have been mis-informed and I should not have been issued a licence as I am a hac......
After a while ( This is the letter I have ) I will quote directly from it.
"After further investigation by myself, and discussion with you, and other authorities, it was identified that a person who only has a hackney cariage proprietor/driver licence does not require a private hire operator licence."
Amongs other things relating to my case what I will not mention.
So I thought that was settled.
Then I said "hang on Ive lost 4 weeks pay cos he told me I needed the licence and I never did"
I even got a refund for the fee....
Now I get a letter saying are you advertising and taking bookings from your home address ?
and please inform us of the vehicles you use...
So this is why I need the questions answered,
He is bugged as I want loss of earnings for the 4 week period isnt he....
So now he wants me to answer the questions ( Why should I ? ) I aint licenced with him.
Or is there a seperate advertising law I do not know about...
Regards Steve |
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The Independent Taxi driver |
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GMB BRANCH SEC LONDON
TF Almighty!
Posts:1170
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| 24 Sep 2007 9:23 PM |
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What an effing nightmare, thank goodness it dosnt happen in London, much! methinks all this shiete needs ironing out with new NATIONAL legislation, as our branches multiply this is definitely one issue where our political clout will prove invaluable! Fail to see why drivers should have to read up on all these bloody cases, many of which appear ambigious! Join the GMB this is one of the MAJOR issues, a national DRIVERS org will be successfull at!
ORGANISE EDUCATE AGITATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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NATIONAL ORGANISER GMB PDB |
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Taxis
Tyne and Wear
"The Independent Taxi Driver"
TF Student
Posts:342
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| 24 Sep 2007 10:24 PM |
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Posted By GMB BRANCH SEC LONDON on 24 Sep 2007 9:23 PM
What an effing nightmare,
Your not kidding it is a nightmare honest.
But then again when a licencing officer gives advice you take it to be true.
When it was wrong I doubt his position as a licencing officer to be able to enforce the laws .
If someone does not know the laws 100% how can they enforce the laws. And why be in that job ?
So my fight goes on and I will not settle until I know my rights..
PLEASE PLEASE do not think for one instant I am trying to ask info to aid cross border issues.
I simply live just over the boundry of my licencing council.
Well I cant help it I live there !...
AND where I am licenced is a lot closer to go to a rank I like and think a lot of my fellow hac drivers.
BUT I need to work so I was hoping to say if my car and me is on my drive and not 200yards down the street in my licencing area can I still take bookings with my mobile and allow my advertising to spill into my home area ?
Thanks for the reply GMB BRANCH SEC LONDON... I appreciate it.
Regards Steve
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The Independent Taxi driver |
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Taxis
Tyne and Wear
"The Independent Taxi Driver"
TF Student
Posts:342
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| 24 Sep 2007 10:33 PM |
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More to my point is this.....
If I am in my home just over the border am I not supposed to take a booking off the same number I use when I am in my area ?
The council where I live have said "After further investigation by myself, and discussion with you, and other authorities, it was identified that a person who only has a hackney cariage proprietor/driver licence does not require a private hire operator licence."
so it should end there right ??????????
Or is it me missing something here ?
Any 100% advice would be great.
Regards Steve |
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The Independent Taxi driver |
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batus
TF Guru
Posts:64
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| 25 Sep 2007 8:01 AM |
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I still take bookings with my mobile and allow my advertising to spill into my home area ?
Steve i think taking bookings on your mobile is ok, but as its exactly that. it could be difficult to say where you were when you took the booking.
i think im correct in saying that some drivers have been done for forwarding their landline numbers of their office onto their mobiles.
example.
im licensed in maidenhead but live on the A4 just over the licensing boundary into slough. im driving down the A4 towaerds Maidenhead to start my shift, im still not quite in the licensing area boundary and the phone rings by a punter wanting to make a booking. do i say im 200m from the licensing boundary can you hang on a mo or do i take their booking ....? |
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batus
TF Guru
Posts:64
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| 25 Sep 2007 8:03 AM |
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i think im correct in saying that some drivers have been done for forwarding their landline numbers of their office onto their mobiles.
meant to follow the above quote up with......... as they were out of their licensing area at the time they took another booking.
such as getting a job in their area which took them out of it, but on the return journey back they took another booking while still out of their area |
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GMB BRANCH SEC LONDON
TF Almighty!
Posts:1170
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| 26 Sep 2007 5:08 PM |
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| Right i am definetly no authority on this issue, but I am aware of drivers having computerised telephone equipment which initially receives all calls and then diverts them to your mobile.Now i dont know that that computer HAS to be in the Licencing area, but what is clearly apparent,is all this BOLLOCKS must be stopped.Why do us workers in this industry tolerate this insult to OUR inteligence,when are we going to say ENOUGH!! You all must be clearly aware that the GMB will be available to assist our battle to once and for all obtain for ourselves a fair, NATIONWIDE licensing regime for all.If you are suffering from such nonsense now, how much longer are you prepared to tolerate IT?? Have you had ENOUGH yet? or is it easier to do nothing? I sincerly believe that the industry now has the opportunity to partake in a campaign to obtain FAIRNESS and JUSTICE for itself,hopefully the apathy is dissapearing! Everyonewho posts on here obviously cares! lets hope we can turn that concern into action!!!!!!!!!!!! Failiure to tackle the issues will only result in their continuance. UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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proffessor yaffle
TF Regular
Posts:32
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| 26 Sep 2007 9:19 PM |
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Right i am definetly no authority on this issue
too right ya not
where does texting, internet etc come into it
theres firms now that operate a text service, how can that be monitored |
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allo-allo
TF Guru
Posts:58
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| 27 Sep 2007 12:43 AM |
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This whole sad tale simply adds to the mountain of similar confusion the completely inadequate and outdated legislation already generates.
eg Ford Galaxy licensed for 6 pax in one area but only 5 in adjacent area.
All taxi/PHV either must or must not be black/white/red/yellow/striped/spotted (but not pink !)
Badged taxi/PHV Drivers do or do not need DSA Cab Drivers test and/ or local knowledge test
Knowledge tests do/do not include testing of regional as well as local area
Enhanced CRB tests are required for UK Nationals but not for foreigners?
Talk about a postcode lottery in the provision of taxi/PHV services.
Maybe we should drop United Kingdom and become United Counties of Britain, similar to USA then this shambles could be justified! |
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roadrunner
TF Regular
Posts:43
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| 27 Sep 2007 8:09 AM |
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thats just some of the issues highlighted allo allo
if there was one national body over seeing this mess would there still be the need for local associations ?
im sure some would say that one big national body, would be to the advantage of the big cities and to the detrement of smaller towns etc
by that i mean, the policies brought in would in a few instances benefit locations with many vehicles as opposed to the areas with fewer.
would creating a plate for vehicles to work anywhere nationally be any better than a plate for a restricted area governed by council borders ? |
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GMB BRANCH SEC LONDON
TF Almighty!
Posts:1170
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| 27 Sep 2007 11:19 AM |
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With reserct i think the vital point is being missed!
1. The present situation is intolerable!
2. It was created without Driver input!
3.The solution lies in the Drivers organising themselves into a powerful lobby to force sensible REPLACEMENT legislation onto the statute book!
4.Making lawyers rich by attempting to set legal precedents has proved an abject failure
5.Politicians make Legislation, therein lies our avenue to solving our problems.
Local associations do not have the clout or finance to influence the issues, Local Branches GMBPDB has these in abundance, through these EVERY driver can influence the policys! UNITED YOU STAND DIVIDED YOU FALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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NATIONAL ORGANISER GMB PDB |
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allo-allo
TF Guru
Posts:58
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| 27 Sep 2007 12:58 PM |
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Roadrunner, you do already have a plate that allows you to work nationally.
It's not the plate I'm complaining about it's all the ludicrous repetition of decisions taken differently in each local authority.
I would like to see a National Standard for vehicles ( with options for urban/rural and suburban areas) AND the need for each applicant for a badge to have to pass a local and regional knowledge test appropriate to the area AND to pass a DSA Cab drivers driving test AND to have to pass an Enhanced CRB Check or a foreign check of at least the same standard ( not a note from the village policeman) AND a similar colour standard and roof sign requirement ( eg large illuminated =Taxi , small unlit =PHV ) (eg Taxi=white, PHV=not white).
Though ideally I would reform the whole thing and have ONE type of taxi and I would limit numbers of drivers. This would give drivers rather than owners some control of their working lives. There would be No selling of plates. COMPLETE NEW LAWS NEEDED NOW! |
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GMB BRANCH SEC LONDON
TF Almighty!
Posts:1170
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| 27 Sep 2007 3:26 PM |
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COMPLETE NEW LAWS NEEDED NOW bang on, of course, next step the organisation to do it, and of course that means a large democratic one!Only the drivers can cure this problem,the current situation suits many fleet owners, lawyers,etc.Its up to you, stay on your own struggle or organise, its not impossible its all been done before, by the Gas Workers in the 1880s to the Tube drivers today, with our modern technology communication is easy, why not use it.? Why not get Drivers from all over the country together to debate what WE want and how to achieve it?Our membership is beginning to go down that route. dont be left out join in now!!!
ORGANISE EDUCATE AGITATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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NATIONAL ORGANISER GMB PDB |
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